Legislature(2021 - 2022)ADAMS 519

03/02/2022 09:00 AM House FINANCE

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ HB 166 ONE LICENSE PLATE PER VEHICLE TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
-- Public Testimony --
+ HB 177 REVISED PROGRAM: APPROPRIATIONS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+= HB 281 APPROP: OPERATING BUDGET/LOANS/FUNDS TELECONFERENCED
Scheduled but Not Heard
+= HB 282 APPROP: MENTAL HEALTH BUDGET TELECONFERENCED
Scheduled but Not Heard
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                  HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE                                                                                       
                       March 2, 2022                                                                                            
                         9:04 a.m.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:04:35 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CALL TO ORDER                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Merrick called the House Finance Committee meeting                                                                     
to order at 9:04 a.m.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Neal Foster, Co-Chair                                                                                            
Representative Kelly Merrick, Co-Chair                                                                                          
Representative Dan Ortiz, Vice-Chair                                                                                            
Representative Ben Carpenter                                                                                                    
Representative Bryce Edgmon                                                                                                     
Representative DeLena Johnson                                                                                                   
Representative Andy Josephson                                                                                                   
Representative Bart LeBon                                                                                                       
Representative Steve Thompson                                                                                                   
Representative Adam Wool                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Sara Rasmussen                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
ALSO PRESENT                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative Kevin McCabe, Bill Sponsor; Kelly Howell,                                                                        
Special Assistant to the Commissioner, Department of Public                                                                     
Safety; Representative Chris Tuck, Bill Sponsor.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
PRESENT VIA TELECONFERENCE                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
David Wilson, Captain, Alaska  State Troopers, Department of                                                                    
Public  Safety; Julie  Morris,  Staff, Representative  Kevin                                                                    
McCabe;  Jeffrey   Schmitz,  Director,  Division   of  Motor                                                                    
Vehicles, Department of Administration.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SUMMARY                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
HB 166    ONE LICENSE PLATE PER VEHICLE                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
          HB 166 was HEARD and HELD in committee for                                                                            
          further consideration.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
HB 177    REVISED PROGRAM: APPROPRIATIONS                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
          HB 177 was HEARD and HELD in committee for                                                                            
          further consideration.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
HB 281    APPROP: OPERATING BUDGET/LOANS/FUNDS                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
          HB 281 was SCHEDULED but not HEARD.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
HB 282    APPROP: MENTAL HEALTH BUDGET                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
          HB 282 was SCHEDULED but not HEARD.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Merrick reviewed the meeting agenda.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 166                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     "An Act relating to the issuance of vehicle                                                                                
     registration plates."                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:05:22 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KEVIN MCCABE,  BILL SPONSOR,  explained that                                                                    
the  bill  would  take  Alaska  vehicles  from  a  two-plate                                                                    
requirement to a one-plate requirement.  He described HB 166                                                                    
as a  budget bill meant  to bring  savings to the  state. He                                                                    
thought the legislature  was past the point  of making large                                                                    
budget cuts and legislators were  looking for places to make                                                                    
"surgical efficiencies."  His office had  spoken extensively                                                                    
with police departments and the  Department of Public Safety                                                                    
(DPS). He detailed the entities  had reported five citations                                                                    
in  2020  and  one  citation   in  2019.  He  explained  the                                                                    
citations were fix-it tickets that  generated no revenue for                                                                    
the state. He  believed the state should save  some money in                                                                    
the production  and distribution of the  plates. He detailed                                                                    
that the bill did not  impact any program, service, or jobs.                                                                    
The plates  were generated  by a  company contracted  by the                                                                    
Division of  Motor Vehicles (DMV).  He viewed the bill  as a                                                                    
surgical change  and pointed  to the  fiscal note  showing a                                                                    
cost savings of $332,000. He  thought it would be helpful to                                                                    
the  state if  the  legislature could  make numerous  "small                                                                    
surgical changes."                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:07:29 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wool  asked if the customer  paying for their                                                                    
license plate  would be charged  less for one  plate instead                                                                    
of two.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative  McCabe  replied  that Alaska  was  different                                                                    
than most  other states on  the topic. He explained  that in                                                                    
most other  states a vehicle  owner paid a  registration fee                                                                    
and  purchased  the plates.  He  clarified  that in  Alaska,                                                                    
individuals paid the registration  fee, and the state bought                                                                    
the plates.  He elaborated that according  to the Department                                                                    
of  Administration  (DOA), the  bill  would  mean the  state                                                                    
would only  have to  purchase one  plate per  vehicle, which                                                                    
would result in savings to  the state. He supposed the costs                                                                    
could be  passed to citizens,  but the registration  was not                                                                    
that big, and it would be a wash.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wool  clarified that  he did not  really want                                                                    
to  change any  other  fee structures  and  did not  support                                                                    
changing fee  structures for vehicle registration.  He asked                                                                    
for  verification that  because the  bill only  required one                                                                    
license  plate  per vehicle,  it  would  be possible  for  a                                                                    
person to  legally put on  a plate of their  favorite sports                                                                    
team.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative McCabe agreed.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Thompson  referenced  specialty  plates.  He                                                                    
asked  for verification  that vehicle  owners  would not  be                                                                    
disallowed from having a front  plate as well. He surmised a                                                                    
person  could continue  to purchase  and  pay for  specialty                                                                    
plates to install on the front and back of their vehicle.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative McCabe agreed.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative Thompson thought it sounded good.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair Ortiz  thanked the sponsor for  bringing the bill                                                                    
forward  and  appreciated  that   making  small  savings  in                                                                    
various locations could  add up. He asked if  there had been                                                                    
any element of added safety  for law enforcement to identify                                                                    
vehicles more easily with two plates.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative  McCabe  did  not know  the  precise  history                                                                    
behind the  use of  two plates. He  stated that  traffic had                                                                    
been slower  in the  past when  plates had  been put  in. He                                                                    
stated  that especially  with new  cars,  the front  license                                                                    
plate  interfered  with  the  radar  sensors,  cameras,  and                                                                    
proximity  sensors placed  on  front  bumpers. He  explained                                                                    
that most new cars, including  hybrid and electric, were not                                                                    
equipped with  front plates  and it  was necessary  to drill                                                                    
holes in  the bumper  or get an  after market  license plate                                                                    
holder. He believed  the bill moved Alaska  forward with the                                                                    
technology. His  office had checked with  the various police                                                                    
departments  and DPS.  He noted  that  individuals from  the                                                                    
organizations were available online.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative  McCabe   identified  the   Anchorage  Police                                                                    
Department (APD)  as the only  police department that  had a                                                                    
problem with  the bill.  He elaborated  that APD  had stated                                                                    
the change  would take a  tool away from the  department. He                                                                    
informed the committee that DPS  was neutral on the bill and                                                                    
had   communicated  it   would   deal   with  whatever   the                                                                    
legislature  decided.  He  added  that  one  of  the  police                                                                    
departments  in  the  [Mat-Su] valley  had  communicated  it                                                                    
would not be  enthusiastic about the change, but  it was not                                                                    
that big  of a deal.  Based on  his own personal  survey, he                                                                    
observed  that about  one in  ten  vehicles did  not have  a                                                                    
front plate  or it was not  visible at night due  to snow or                                                                    
mud. He  wondered why  the state should  spend the  money on                                                                    
the plate if it was not ticketing for its absence.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:12:57 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair Ortiz thought it sounded  reasonable. He asked if                                                                    
current  law  required  vehicles  to  have  front  and  back                                                                    
plates.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative  McCabe  answered   vehicles  were  currently                                                                    
statutorily required to  have front and back  plates, but it                                                                    
was not enforced. He noted  the penalty was a fix-it ticket.                                                                    
He  added  he  had  supporting  documents  from  individuals                                                                    
stating they  would rather  get a  fix-it ticket  than drill                                                                    
holes in their Jaguar or expensive truck bumpers.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative LeBon  recognized there was  a representative                                                                    
present from DPS.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
9:14:09 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KELLY  HOWELL,   SPECIAL  ASSISTANT  TO   THE  COMMISSIONER,                                                                    
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY, stated  that the department did                                                                    
not  have  a position  on  the  bill. The  department  would                                                                    
enforce whatever  laws the legislature deemed  necessary and                                                                    
prudent.  She noted  there  was a  captain  with the  Alaska                                                                    
State  Troopers  on  the line  who  could  answer  questions                                                                    
regarding enforcement.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
DAVID WILSON, CAPTAIN, ALASKA  STATE TROOPERS, DEPARTMENT OF                                                                    
PUBLIC SAFETY (via teleconference),  shared that he had been                                                                    
a state  trooper for  20 years  and had  been assigned  to a                                                                    
variety of things including  petrol, investigations, and the                                                                    
director's  office.  He  noted  that  DPS  did  not  have  a                                                                    
position on the bill and  would do whatever was necessary to                                                                    
modify  its  current  work  in   order  to  accommodate  any                                                                    
changes. There  were a couple  of things the  department did                                                                    
where  front  plates  were  helpful.  For  example,  when  a                                                                    
collision  occurred and  there  was a  criminal charge,  the                                                                    
offender  was  typically  hitting  someone  with  their  car                                                                    
instead of getting  hit by someone. He  explained that front                                                                    
plates  often fell  off at  hit-and-run sites,  which helped                                                                    
the  department. He  noted it  did not  mean the  department                                                                    
would not be  able to find the offender in  another way, but                                                                    
it was something that effected investigations.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Wilson identified a second  example relating to criminal                                                                    
activities involving  a suspect absconding from  a scene. He                                                                    
explained  that as  officers  approached  a scene,  vehicles                                                                    
traveling  away from  the incident  were headed  towards the                                                                    
officers and the front plate  was visible. He explained that                                                                    
without  the front  plate, there  were vehicle  descriptions                                                                    
and perhaps  other things, but  it was a bit  more difficult                                                                    
to  locate  absconders.  He  stated   the  issues  were  not                                                                    
insurmountable, but  they impacted the  department's ability                                                                    
to investigate sometimes. He noted  the department could get                                                                    
around the issue in other  ways. He explained that resources                                                                    
were often the  issue: the more officers  the department had                                                                    
to respond  to a scene  increased the likelihood  of pulling                                                                    
over  a vehicle  matching  the description  where the  front                                                                    
plate  would not  be  as necessary.  He  confirmed that  the                                                                    
department did not ticket the violation very often.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:17:15 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wool asked  if the lack of a  front plate was                                                                    
used as a  reason to pull someone over to  look into further                                                                    
infractions or violations of law.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Wilson confirmed  it was the case. He  elaborated it was                                                                    
referred  to as  "probable  cause for  a  traffic stop."  He                                                                    
noted  that when  used for  probable cause  it often  turned                                                                    
into other  enforcement action. He elaborated  if there were                                                                    
more  serious  things found  during  the  traffic stop,  the                                                                    
other issues would likely get  more attention than the front                                                                    
plate as  far as  ticketing and eventually  criminal charges                                                                    
if they occurred.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Merrick asked for an explanation of "PC."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Wilson replied  that PC  stood for  probable cause.  He                                                                    
explained that  DPS was required  to have a burden  of proof                                                                    
that a violation  had occurred in order to  seize a vehicle.                                                                    
The department could  not merely pull people  over without a                                                                    
reason.  The front  plate  provided PC  for  a traffic  stop                                                                    
because it was a violation.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wool asked  if  DPS kept  statistics on  the                                                                    
number of  times it used the  lack of a front  license plate                                                                    
as PC but did not issue a  ticket as a result of the traffic                                                                    
stop.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Wilson would  follow  up  with an  answer.  He did  not                                                                    
believe DPS  had a database  storing information for  PC for                                                                    
stops  that  were  not ticketed.  The  department  did  have                                                                    
records on the actual tickets.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative Josephson thought  a stop required reasonable                                                                    
suspicion not probable cause.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Wilson answered  that DPS  needed reasonable  suspicion                                                                    
during a  traffic stop to do  things like a dog  search on a                                                                    
vehicle  for the  presence of  narcotics. He  explained that                                                                    
probable cause  was required for  the initial  traffic stop.                                                                    
He  elaborated that  the topic  often arose  during criminal                                                                    
investigations involving  DUI [driving under  the influence]                                                                    
and  other  crimes,  where  the  probable  cause  was  often                                                                    
challenged by  the defense. He  explained that  without good                                                                    
probable cause, the entire DUI could be dismissed.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:20:34 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Josephson thought  that previous questions in                                                                    
the committee seemed to contain  an undercurrent of troopers                                                                    
using the absence of a front  plate as pretext to find other                                                                    
nefarious misconduct. He asked  if Mr. Wilson supported that                                                                    
notion.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Wilson answered  that state troopers were  very busy and                                                                    
generally  the  absence  of  a   front  plate  did  not  get                                                                    
significant attention  from DPS  to initiate a  traffic stop                                                                    
unless there was something else  going on. He expounded that                                                                    
if a  vehicle matched a description  of a vehicle seen  as a                                                                    
dangerous  driver along  the roadway  or speeding  through a                                                                    
neighborhood  and   the  troopers   did  not  have   a  good                                                                    
description of the vehicle, the  lack of a front plate would                                                                    
be   a  pretext   for  reckless   driving   or  an   assault                                                                    
investigation. He stated the department  did not really have                                                                    
much time for  troopers to pull someone over  just because a                                                                    
plate was  missing; it  usually involved  in a  more serious                                                                    
offence.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative Edgmon thanked the  bill sponsor for bringing                                                                    
the bill  forward. He thought  of a bill offered  earlier in                                                                    
the current  session by  Representative James  Kaufman about                                                                    
digital  publications.  He  reasoned that  often  times  the                                                                    
benefits and  the costs lay  in the margin. He  considered a                                                                    
scenario where  HB 166  passed and  became law.  He remarked                                                                    
that there would continue to  be vehicles with front license                                                                    
plates  including   motor  vehicles   like  ATVs   and  snow                                                                    
machines. He asked  if the bill sponsor had  thought out the                                                                    
implementation and how the situation would work.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:23:34 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative McCabe asked for clarification.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Edgmon  clarified  he  was  asking  about  a                                                                    
scenario where the bill went into effect.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative McCabe had not  thought out the mechanics. He                                                                    
highlighted that he had a  conversation the previous evening                                                                    
with a  staffer who  had shared her  back license  plate had                                                                    
been destroyed. The individual had  communicated that if the                                                                    
bill passed,  she would put the  front plate on the  back of                                                                    
her car and add license decals so  she did not have to buy a                                                                    
new  plate.  He was  not  clear  on Representative  Edgmon's                                                                    
question.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Edgmon provided  a scenario  where a  person                                                                    
registered their vehicle in 2022.  He asked for verification                                                                    
that the car would have a front plate with a 2024 decal.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative  McCabe answered  that front  plates did  not                                                                    
have decals.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:25:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wool  asked how many  other states had  a one                                                                    
plate or two plate law.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative McCabe answered that  20 states currently had                                                                    
a one  plate law.  He noted that  Idaho was  currently going                                                                    
through  the  process. He  shared  that  Ohio was  the  most                                                                    
recent  state to  go  through the  process;  his office  had                                                                    
spoken with a  trooper in Ohio who had  reported the rollout                                                                    
there had been seamless and  the change had not hindered the                                                                    
ability to make stops for traffic offences.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Edgmon believed the bill  was a good idea and                                                                    
saving $330,000 was a substantial amount of money.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Johnson  asked  if  there  were  any  safety                                                                    
considerations associated with having  four holes drilled in                                                                    
the front bumper with no license plate.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative McCabe  believed it  depended on the  car. He                                                                    
shared that his  father-in-law was an old car  buff and some                                                                    
of the older  front bumpers were small. He  imagined a large                                                                    
plate holder  on the front  of some older cars  could impact                                                                    
the   structural  integrity.   He  highlighted   that  newer                                                                    
electric cars  did not  have a font  bumper. He  believed it                                                                    
would  likely   impact  the  structural  integrity   of  the                                                                    
plastic.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative Thompson had not  heard any resistance to the                                                                    
bill. He  requested to report  it from committee  during the                                                                    
current meeting.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:27:52 AM                                                                                                                    
AT EASE                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:28:51 AM                                                                                                                    
RECONVENED                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Carpenter  asked   what  liability   Alaska                                                                    
drivers picked  up if they  moved to another state  or drove                                                                    
their vehicle to  another state. He surmised  the move would                                                                    
require a  new license  plate in  a new  state. He  asked if                                                                    
drivers would pick  up a liability if they  drove to another                                                                    
state requiring two license plates.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Representative McCabe  answered that  his office  had talked                                                                    
to  the Ohio  state trooper  about the  issue. He  explained                                                                    
that in  the past, a  neighboring state had a  one-plate law                                                                    
and  Ohio troopers  would  notice  vehicles driving  through                                                                    
with one plate.  One of the reasons Ohio changed  its law to                                                                    
one  plate  was to  align  with  the neighboring  state.  He                                                                    
explained   that  typically   the   law   for  a   vehicle's                                                                    
registration followed  the car.  For example, an  Alaska car                                                                    
driving  to Washington  would only  need one  plate [if  the                                                                    
bill became  law]. He reasoned  that a driver  could perhaps                                                                    
be  stopped,   but  they  would   be  legal   because  their                                                                    
registration  was in  Alaska and  they  were complying  with                                                                    
Alaska law.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:30:47 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JULIE  MORRIS,  STAFF,   REPRESENTATIVE  KEVIN  MCCABE  (via                                                                    
teleconference),  reviewed the  sectional analysis  (copy on                                                                    
file):                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Section  1:   Amends  AS   28.10.108(g)  to   make  all                                                                    
    references to "plates" and "registration" singular.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Section  2:   Amends  AS   28.10.108(h)  to   make  all                                                                    
     references to "plates" singular.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Section  3:   Amends  AS   28.10.155(a)  to   make  all                                                                    
     references to "plates" singular.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Section  4:  Grammatically  amends AS  28.10.161(a)  to                                                                    
     conform with the singular intent of the bill.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Section  5:  Amends  AS  28.10.161(b)  adds  conforming                                                                    
     language for a singular plate.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Section  6:  Adds a  subsection  to  AS 28.10.161  that                                                                    
     provides an  individual or  organization the  option to                                                                    
     return a plate should they be issued two plates.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Section  7:  Grammatically  amends AS  28.10.181(b)  to                                                                    
     conform with the singular intent of the bill.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Section  8:   Amends  AS   28.10.181(j)  to   make  all                                                                    
     references to "plates" singular.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Section  9:  Amends  AS  28.10.121(d)(9)  to  make  all                                                                    
     references to "plates" singular.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Section 10: Amends AS 28.10.441 to make all references                                                                     
     to "plates" singular.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:31:44 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Merrick OPENED and CLOSED public testimony.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Merrick  asked the department to  review the fiscal                                                                    
note.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
JEFFREY  SCHMITZ,  DIRECTOR,  DIVISION  OF  MOTOR  VEHICLES,                                                                    
DEPARTMENT  OF ADMINISTRATION  (via teleconference),  stated                                                                    
the  fiscal   note  reflected  a  simple   analysis  of  the                                                                    
division's annual cost for purchasing  two plates versus one                                                                    
plate.  The division  estimated  a savings  of $332,000  per                                                                    
year.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:33:31 AM                                                                                                                    
AT EASE                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:33:42 AM                                                                                                                    
RECONVENED                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Merrick  set an  amendment  deadline  for noon  on                                                                    
March 5. She thanked the  bill sponsor for bringing the bill                                                                    
forward.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
HB  166  was  HEARD  and   HELD  in  committee  for  further                                                                    
consideration.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:34:11 AM                                                                                                                    
AT EASE                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:34:59 AM                                                                                                                    
RECONVENED                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 177                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     "An Act relating to an increase of an appropriation                                                                        
     due to additional federal or other program receipts;                                                                       
     and providing for an effective date."                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:35:06 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  CHRIS  TUCK,  BILL SPONSOR,  introduced  the                                                                    
bill  pertaining  to   revised  program  appropriations.  He                                                                    
stated that the bill  attempted to assert the constitutional                                                                    
powers of  the legislature  by better defining  and limiting                                                                    
the  revised program  legislative  (RPL)  process. He  noted                                                                    
that the  term was  actually an  accounting code  and should                                                                    
really  be  referred  to as  revised  program  receipts.  He                                                                    
explained   that  the   process  involved   authorizing  the                                                                    
Legislative  Budget  and  Audit  (LB&A)  Committee  to  have                                                                    
receipt authority  through an RPL process  that the governor                                                                    
presented  to  the  committee for  additional  approval.  He                                                                    
clarified that  once the  legislature set  up a  program and                                                                    
passed a budget  or appropriations to fund  the program, the                                                                    
legislature,  as  the  appropriating  body,  gave  LB&A  the                                                                    
authority  to receive  any additional  funding coming  in on                                                                    
behalf  of   the  full  legislature.  The   bill  sought  to                                                                    
establish  sidebars   to  ensure  the  process   was  better                                                                    
understood  and  to  avoid legal  problems  when  money  was                                                                    
received.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:37:39 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  LeBon recalled  a situation  two years  back                                                                    
where  LB&A   had  accepted  federal  money   and  the  full                                                                    
legislature  had  to convene  in  Juneau  to approve  action                                                                    
taken. He  asked for a summary  of what had taken  place and                                                                    
how it likely influenced hearing the bill currently.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Tuck  replied  that historically,  the  most                                                                    
money the  LB&A had received was  approximately $120 million                                                                    
until Medicaid  expansion, which  had increased  the largest                                                                    
amount received  to $500 million.  Over the past  few years,                                                                    
$5 billion  had come from  LB&A. He reported there  had been                                                                    
three  problems   associated  with  American   Recovery  and                                                                    
Reinvestment  Act   (ARRA)  funding  received.   First,  the                                                                    
legislature  had not  set  up a  program.  For example,  the                                                                    
small business  relief program had  not been  established by                                                                    
the legislature;  the governor  had established  the program                                                                    
through the  executive branch. He  explained there  had been                                                                    
no  appropriations  money  from   the  legislature  for  the                                                                    
program; the  governor had  appropriated the  money. Second,                                                                    
for the  community relief program, community  assistance had                                                                    
been vetoed  by the governor from  the budget. Subsequently,                                                                    
the governor had  put the money in through  the RPL process.                                                                    
Third, there had  been items in the capital  budget that had                                                                    
not  yet  passed  the  legislature  that  the  governor  ran                                                                    
through  the RPL  process. He  highlighted a  fourth problem                                                                    
where  funds  that went  out  through  the community  relief                                                                    
program  were contrary  to  federal  guidance. For  example,                                                                    
funds  could  not  be  used   for  revenue  replacement.  He                                                                    
explained  that  because of  the  situation,  the state  was                                                                    
currently in a  federal audit and the state may  need to pay                                                                    
the monies back.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative  LeBon  asked  how  the  bill  rectified  the                                                                    
issues highlighted by Representative Tuck.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Tuck answered  that  the  legislature had  a                                                                    
constitutional  obligation  when  delegating  authority  and                                                                    
powers  to  a  committee  and   it  was  necessary  for  the                                                                    
legislature   to  be   careful   with  the   responsibility.                                                                    
Additionally, there  were constitutional powers  between the                                                                    
executive and  legislative branches.  The bill  attempted to                                                                    
eliminate  ambiguity on  the  legislature's authority,  what                                                                    
was granted to LB&A, and  what was allowed for the governor.                                                                    
He read from the sectional analysis (copy on file):                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Section 1:                                                                                                                 
     Page 1 lines 5-9 amend  AS 37.07.080(h) to clarify that                                                                    
     the RPL process is  only available for additional funds                                                                    
     for  existing programs  or projects  that have  already                                                                    
     been funded by the Legislature.                                                                                            
     Page  1  lines  10-11  amend  AS  37.07.080(h)(1)  with                                                                    
     conforming language.                                                                                                       
     Page 1 line 12-page 2  line 11 amend AS 37.07.080(h)(2)                                                                    
     to  replace the  current  45-day timeline  for any  RPL                                                                    
     with a stair-stepped timeline as follows:                                                                                  
     ? 45 days for RPLs up to $20 million;                                                                                      
     ? 90 days for RPLs up to $50 million;                                                                                      
     ? 180 days for RPLs up to $100 million; and                                                                                
     ? 270 days for RPLs greater than $100 million.                                                                             
     Page  2,  lines  12-19 amend  AS  37.07.080(h)(3)  with                                                                    
     conforming language.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Section 2:                                                                                                                 
     Provides for an immediate effective date.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:42:40 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Josephson  thanked Representative  Tuck  for                                                                    
introducing the legislation and shared  that he had a strong                                                                    
interest in  the subject. He  stated it was natural  for any                                                                    
governor to want  to protect their authority  and power, and                                                                    
similarly  for the  judiciary and  legislature  to feel  the                                                                    
same  way. He  understood  that some  balance  needed to  be                                                                    
struck.  He talked  about  two  hypothetical scenarios  that                                                                    
caused him some concern.  He elaborated that former Governor                                                                    
Bill Walker had expanded Medicaid  and had found the ability                                                                    
to take the action unilaterally  under Title 47. He detailed                                                                    
that a judge  had ultimately agreed with  the move, although                                                                    
the  legislature  had  vigorously   sued  the  governor.  He                                                                    
thought in retrospect there was  relative calm over the fact                                                                    
that Medicaid  had been expanded.  He noted that  the action                                                                    
had  taken place  in the  summer of  2015. He  asked how  it                                                                    
would have played out under the current bill.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Tuck answered  that  Medicaid expansion  had                                                                    
involved  between   $200  million   and  $500   million.  He                                                                    
explained there  were statutes that instructed  the governor                                                                    
to go after those type of  funds. He detailed that under the                                                                    
bill,  LB&A's role  would be  to determine  where the  funds                                                                    
were going and how they  were used through the Department of                                                                    
Health and  Social Services. He elaborated  that funds could                                                                    
have  been  divided  out  into  timeframes  or  applied.  He                                                                    
clarified  that  if the  funds  had  been  a lump  sum,  the                                                                    
governor could  not act unilaterally  until after  270 days.                                                                    
He furthered  that [under  the proposed  bill] if  no action                                                                    
had  been taken  by  the legislature,  expansion would  have                                                                    
gone into effect after 270 days.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Josephson asked whether  RPLs must be adopted                                                                    
by the  legislature if it was  in session. He asked  for any                                                                    
distinction between interim and  session in the operation of                                                                    
RPLs.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative Tuck  replied that it  did not matter  if the                                                                    
legislature was in or out  of session, LB&A could adopt RPLs                                                                    
around the full legislature.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Josephson  asked  for verification  that  if                                                                    
LB&A  failed to  adopt the  RPLs, they  would become  law by                                                                    
operation "after the clock ticks through."                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:46:21 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Tuck  made a  distinction. He  explained that                                                                    
if the  legislature did  not establish law  by setting  up a                                                                    
program  through  law and  if  it  did not  appropriate  the                                                                    
money, the  governor could not  act unilaterally on  an RPL.                                                                    
He elaborated that  two things could happen when  an RPL was                                                                    
presented  to  LB&A.  The  committee  could  adopt  the  RPL                                                                    
immediately to get the money  distributed as necessary or it                                                                    
could  reject the  RPL and  the RPL  would automatically  go                                                                    
into effect 45 days later.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Josephson  continued   with  the   Medicaid                                                                    
expansion example. He  stated that the amount  would be well                                                                    
in  excess  of $100  million;  therefore,  the 270-day  rule                                                                    
would apply.  He reasoned that the  legislature would always                                                                    
be in  session for  at least 90  days, meaning  the governor                                                                    
could not  expand during interim.  He explained that  if the                                                                    
governor had issued  the RPL at adjournment in  late May, it                                                                    
would  always  spill  into  the next  year.  He  stated  his                                                                    
understanding  that  Representative  Tuck  was  saying  that                                                                    
notwithstanding  the  legislature's   reconvening  the  next                                                                    
year, the  RPL clock would  still tick, and  the legislature                                                                    
would have had to pass a law to stop expansion.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Representative    Tuck    answered    that    Representative                                                                    
Josephson's  understanding   was  correct  related   to  the                                                                    
specific case.  He considered  Medicaid expansion  and small                                                                    
business   relief  separately   because  the   actions  were                                                                    
different.  He  explained   that  with  Medicaid  expansion,                                                                    
because  statute specified  the  governor shall  go for  the                                                                    
funds,  the only  way the  legislature could  have prevented                                                                    
expansion was to change the statute.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative    Josephson   highlighted    the   [federal]                                                                    
Coronavirus Aid,  Relief, and Economic Security  (CARES) Act                                                                    
that  passed at  the onset  of the  pandemic. He  stated his                                                                    
understanding  that under  the  bill, the  relief would  not                                                                    
have  been deliverable  until the  legislature returned.  He                                                                    
recalled that RPLs had been  issued in April/May of 2020 and                                                                    
the legislature left on March 28  on a long recess or quasi-                                                                    
adjournment.  He   asked  for   verification  that   if  the                                                                    
legislature  had not  adopted the  RPLs, the  governor could                                                                    
not have  distributed pandemic relief  and there  would have                                                                    
been tremendous  political pressure  for the  legislature to                                                                    
meet to direct the RPLs to be delivered.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Tuck    replied   that    technically   the                                                                    
legislature had  recessed; therefore, when the  governor had                                                                    
presented the  RPLs they had been  inappropriate and illegal                                                                    
for  the   four  reasons  he   had  previously   listed.  He                                                                    
elaborated that 48 hours after  the RPLs had passed, a court                                                                    
case had been  filed. He had been surprised  the lawsuit had                                                                    
come  from outside  a government  entity. He  had thought  a                                                                    
community  would  have  filed  a suit  because  it  saw  the                                                                    
community assistance  program as unfair. He  considered that                                                                    
perhaps a community would have  filed a lawsuit, but someone                                                                    
else beat them to it.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative Tuck  explained that the legislature  did not                                                                    
appropriate the  money, a program  had not been set  up, and                                                                    
the governor had  unilaterally exercised authorities outside                                                                    
the legislature. He emphasized  it was clear the legislature                                                                    
was  the purse  strings to  the state  budget. Additionally,                                                                    
the  legislature   was  responsible  for   setting  programs                                                                    
through legislation.  He characterized  the governor  as the                                                                    
arms  and legs  responsible for  carrying out  programs once                                                                    
they were established by the  legislature. He stated that in                                                                    
the specific  case, the  governor had acted  on his  own and                                                                    
everything  had  been  done   outside  the  legislature.  He                                                                    
elaborated  that  the  legislature had  reconvened  for  the                                                                    
purpose  of ratifying  action  taken by  LB&A,  not to  take                                                                    
appropriations  or  set programs.  He  stated  it was  still                                                                    
questionable  whether it  was a  legal  activity. He  argued                                                                    
that it was not legal, because  an RPL could not be amended.                                                                    
He explained  that the legislature  would have had  to adopt                                                                    
or ratify  what LB&A had  done or  the RPLs would  have gone                                                                    
into effect automatically [later on].  He stated that a true                                                                    
appropriations bill could be amended  by any legislator, but                                                                    
an RPL was not a true appropriations bill.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:52:34 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Johnson  surmised  there  was  not  a  final                                                                    
judgement on whether the action  had been illegal. She asked                                                                    
about the origin of the  RPL process. She observed that even                                                                    
if  the legislature  was in  session for  90 days,  270 days                                                                    
basically  took   away  the   governor's  ability   to  even                                                                    
contemplate   the  interim.   She  considered   whether  the                                                                    
governor and legislature  needed to be nimble  or not during                                                                    
the interim. She  wondered if it was the reason  the RPL had                                                                    
been implemented in the first place.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Representative Tuck  answered that the RPL  process had been                                                                    
in statute for a long time.  He spoke to the original intent                                                                    
of   the  process.   He  explained   that  the   legislature                                                                    
established   programs   and    funded   them   through   an                                                                    
appropriations budget. When additional  money came in [for a                                                                    
program], the  legislature was  technically constitutionally                                                                    
required  to  come  back into  session  to  appropriate  the                                                                    
money; however,  the legislature  had given powers  to LB&A.                                                                    
He stated  that at one  time the powers had  been challenged                                                                    
by  the  courts;  therefore, LB&A  had  limited  powers.  He                                                                    
stated  there  was  clear  distinction  on  the  issue  from                                                                    
previous court cases. He explained  that the RPL process had                                                                    
gone beyond  the previous  court cases  in the  past several                                                                    
years.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative Johnson  stated she  would have to  look into                                                                    
the  reason  the  RPL  process  had  been  established.  She                                                                    
reasoned  it must  have  come from  a  need. She  considered                                                                    
there  must have  been a  reason  to give  the governor  the                                                                    
option  [to use  the RPL  process] during  the interim.  She                                                                    
wanted to  understand the impetus  for the process  to avoid                                                                    
reversing  something  that  had  been put  in  place  for  a                                                                    
specific reason.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Tuck  answered that the need  was efficiency.                                                                    
The  need had  been  to prevent  the  full legislature  from                                                                    
coming back if they were just  bringing in more money to the                                                                    
state.  He elaborated  that it  mostly pertained  to federal                                                                    
receipts.  He  reminded  the   committee  that  the  federal                                                                    
budgeting cycle was different than  Alaska's state cycle. He                                                                    
expounded that  once the legislature suspected  money may be                                                                    
coming  in for  something  like  education, the  legislature                                                                    
would  set up  a  program for  schools  and appropriate  the                                                                    
money.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Representative Tuck noted there  were several factors in the                                                                    
legislature's  ability  to  accept  RPLs  including  whether                                                                    
there was a program and  whether the money was appropriated.                                                                    
Additionally,  there was  language in  the operating  budget                                                                    
that  allowed the  legislature  to  do so  as  well. If  the                                                                    
criteria were  met, LB&A  could receive  money on  behalf of                                                                    
the full  legislature. He clarified  that the intent  of the                                                                    
process was  not to  set up programs.  He explained  that it                                                                    
was  not  possible to  use  an  appropriation  to set  up  a                                                                    
program; it  was necessary to have  separate legislation. He                                                                    
stated that over  the past several years,  the situation had                                                                    
turned into  a mess. He  argued that if the  legislature had                                                                    
properly  appropriated the  CARES funding,  the money  would                                                                    
have gone out much quicker  under the small business relief.                                                                    
He  stated that  the legislature  had approved  the RPLs  on                                                                    
April 11  [2020] and  they had not  been released  until the                                                                    
end of August, which far exceeded the 45-day limit.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Merrick  set an amendment  deadline for March  5 at                                                                    
noon.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
HB 177 was HEARD and HELD in committee for further                                                                              
consideration.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Merrick reviewed the schedule for the following                                                                        
meeting.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:57:53 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The meeting was adjourned at 9:57 a.m.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB166.OpposingLetters.51421.pdf HFIN 3/2/2022 9:00:00 AM
HB 166
HB166.SectionalAnalysis.VerA.5.14.21.pdf HFIN 3/2/2022 9:00:00 AM
HB 166
HB166.SponsorStmt.VerA.5.14.21.pdf HFIN 3/2/2022 9:00:00 AM
HB 166
HB166.SupportingLetters.51421.pdf HFIN 3/2/2022 9:00:00 AM
HB 166
HB166.SupportingLetters.2.28.22.pdf HFIN 3/2/2022 9:00:00 AM
HB 166
HB 177 Explanation of Changes Version B 02.24.2022.pdf HFIN 3/2/2022 9:00:00 AM
HB 177
HB 177 Research RPL History Summary.pdf HFIN 3/2/2022 9:00:00 AM
HB 177
HB 177 Research Legal Opinion 04.30.2020.pdf HFIN 3/2/2022 9:00:00 AM
HB 177
HB 177 Sectional Analysis Version B 02.24.2022.pdf HFIN 3/2/2022 9:00:00 AM
HB 177
HB 177 Sponsor Statement Version B 02.24.2022.pdf HFIN 3/2/2022 9:00:00 AM
HB 177